Article Link NPR (2022): "Want to get stronger? Try weightlifting" [content about body image]

[hch]

Originally Posted by Gemini2874

This article made me think of an American power lifter I follow who is very inspiring. She has even beaten men! Her name is Gabi Dixson. Here is a short clip of her breaking another record: https://youtu.be/ZFovXyEchrs?si=y21bhztUxXoCKUOD

Thanks for sharing! It's good that we can share here about a woman lifting weight (instead of losing weight) and actually having our interest fit instead of seeming nonsensical.

[hch]

Originally Posted by toaster

Woman from my era was completely indoctrinated in beauty, esthetics, weight, dieting, etc. The same may very well be true for the younger generation, but back then, there wasn't even any countervailing information - e.g., the problems with "diet culture," body positivity, women can be strong, etc. We had Jane Fonda in gym class and that is it!

If you'd posted this on VF 20 years ago, your post probably would've gotten at least a mildly heated reaction.

Someone on VF around 20 years ago was trying to get me to agree to a similar statement with stronger wording. I didn't commit there (especially after sensing a sort of trap) but might've said that our individual thoughts about exercise (and preferences about aesthetics!) might've been different in a world with different influences.

I feel glad that I was in my teens at a time when strength training was actually starting to be appreciated for health reasons and for helping everyday ability anyway, such that it started getting a new emphasis in official recommendations.

[hch]

Originally Posted by cataddict

toaster, you make a valid point that there really wasn’t a “counterbalance” of information against the rail thin aesthetic that prevailed as the desired look. I would love to know what the attitude is of younger generations of women—not meaning just the current fad of big butts (yeah, muscle training gets some of that, but nope, genetics has a large role and a big butt wasn’t in my past or future).

I'd like to have a better sense too (I just have been more engaged in My Own Little World, especially for the past several years, for practical reasons). But things have been changing in some ways. One example is that certain magazine sites have at least formally renounced certain things and at least are no longer openly promoting a single standard of Shrinking Women.

I seem to be younger than most VFers. I wasn't especially exposed to especially constraining ideas about "female fitness" and other things, but I was a boy who never read teen magazines. At the least I didn't hear too many narratives about how girls and women were supposed to look that differed too much from how boys and men were expected to be (such as Not Too Fat).

Finding fitness forums a generation ago was at least a slight shock. It gave me the distinct impression of a "fitness" world that was also a stronghold of the idea of a constrained "femininity." VF was hardly perfect, but it was better! I stayed because its policies were different, it had members who were different too, and I had a gut sense that things would change generationally.

I have seen my personal attitude about strength/weight training evolve, albeit slowly, over the years. As others have said, as we get older we see the benefits in living our daily lives.

Things might've been different for me because I was expected to help people move things. (It's interesting that even in those days two decades ago, it would've been fairly unacceptable to insist that women were somehow incapable of moving heavy objects--but still somewhat acceptable to insist they keep their physiques acceptably "feminine.")

I watched my parents’ generation of women get weaker and more fragile as the little musculature they had atrophied with age. I do feel fortunate that my own mother was naturally muscular and those genes apparently passed to me. She did get weaker, but not to the extent that her friends did. I expect that some women might see me as “bulkier” than they would want for themselves, but I see my “bulk” as muscle and it’s positive.

I've wondered a bit how much we have the problem of millions of "under-muscled" women because we had so many people warning of millions of "over-muscled" women. (I don't see this reason as the main reason, but I see it as a significant contributor.)

[toaster]

I think the younger generations today (I'm a Gen Xer, mid-50s) have their own challenges, but it's undeniable that diversity in body size is significantly more accepted than it was when I was a teen (which isn't to say that there's not still biases and fatphobia out there).

H, I think you and I have discussed gender differences before as well, but I won't go there this time.

[hch]

Originally Posted by toaster

I think the younger generations today (I'm a Gen Xer, mid-50s) have their own challenges, but it's undeniable that diversity in body size is significantly more accepted than it was when I was a teen (which isn't to say that there's not still biases and fatphobia out there).

H, I think you and I have discussed gender differences before as well, but I won't go there this time.

Your post, especially, does remind me: I may start a new thread about a 1983 piece from The New York Times Archives when I have more to say about it, especially in a way that's fairly on-topic for VF. I found it recently when looking for the phrase "but not too strong"--that is, that although people have been encouraging an abstract idea of Female Strength for years, its manifestation has always been more restricted and judged than its equivalent in Male Strength has been allowed to be.

GIRLS GET A MIXED MESSAGE

But while the female athlete has incentives to win or improve her talents in a sport, she continues to have incentives not to do so. She can still look forward to being judged as ''too strong,'' a euphemism for ''unfeminine'' or, as the reporter questioning Miss Navratilova demonstrated, she can be faced with a denial of her efforts. Everywhere is disapproval.

Part of me wants to know what exact words teen magazines (as mentioned by the NPR host) used to sell the message that Girls With Muscle were "unfeminine," but part of me would simply find the revelation depressing and infuriating. The Adult Version probably wasn't too dissimilar, anyway.

[warriorprincess]

I remember an old Cathe video where she says to use light weights for shrugs because bigger traps and shoulders were unattractive on a woman. She seems to have gotten over that

[hch]

Originally Posted by warriorprincess

I remember an old Cathe video where she says to use light weights for shrugs because bigger traps and shoulders were unattractive on a woman. She seems to have gotten over that

I remember hearing about what she said there and having my reputation of her suffer accordingly.

I thought the remark especially ironic because she was also the leading target of VFers' (occasional) criticism of instructor physiques. (Yes, the guideline discouraging such criticisms was already around then--at least it probably did deter even more criticism, as well as potential threads like "wHat iNsTrUcToRs' BoDiEs Do YoU dIsLiKe????" ) I don't remember any of her critics ever saying anything like "aT lEaST hEr TrApS aRe NiCe aNd FeMiNiNe!!!!!11111!"

Hm, VF now has much less self-criticism; it also has much less criticism of others. Who would've guessed?

[toaster]

Originally Posted by hch

Part of me wants to know what exact words teen magazines (as mentioned by the NPR host) used to sell the message that Girls With Muscle were "unfeminine," but part of me would simply find the revelation depressing and infuriating. The Adult Version probably wasn't too dissimilar, anyway.

Thanks for sharing that article. Probably the language to girls/women mirrored the masculinity messages that boys/men were getting - e.g., boys don't cry.

I think we are moving away from gender stereotypes overall, which I see as a positive thing. But they still exist, and I think it's easy for all of us to fall back into old patterns of thinking at times.

[cataddict]

Originally Posted by warriorprincess

I remember an old Cathe video where she says to use light weights for shrugs because bigger traps and shoulders were unattractive on a woman. She seems to have gotten over that

Yes, I did that workout fairly recently and remember thinking what the &*^%? She has, indeed, gotten over that.

I recall a thread or two about instructor physiques, mostly couched in terms that skirted the guidelines. I probably posted on a few. My personal interpretation of the topic was and is, “whose physique would be “my best me” if it was even possible to achieve it given my genetics and level of commitment.” I’m not tall and we are a pretty “solid" breed in my family. I don’t judge instructors who are "long, lean, and lithe”, but it isn’t “my best me” to attempt to replicate that look if it were possible for me. I also don’t have the dedication/commitment to build a truly muscular physique, but don’t judge those instructors who have achieved that look.

I think it’s sad that women are slammed for being “too fat, too thin, too muscular, too flabby, too old, etc. etc.” I think it’s even sadder when those who make those judgments are other women! IMHO the needle hasn’t moved a whole lot away from that in a positive direction, at least in the “gpop.” I do think it’s gotten better here at VF, but then again, the forum isn’t nearly as active as it used to be.

[prettyinpink]

Originally Posted by warriorprincess

I remember an old Cathe video where she says to use light weights for shrugs because bigger traps and shoulders were unattractive on a woman. She seems to have gotten over that

Originally Posted by cataddict

Yes, I did that workout fairly recently and remember thinking what the &*^%? She has, indeed, gotten over that.

I recall a thread or two about instructor physiques, mostly couched in terms that skirted the guidelines. I probably posted on a few. My personal interpretation of the topic was and is, “whose physique would be “my best me” if it was even possible to achieve it given my genetics and level of commitment.” I’m not tall and we are a pretty “solid" breed in my family. I don’t judge instructors who are "long, lean, and lithe”, but it isn’t “my best me” to attempt to replicate that look if it were possible for me. I also don’t have the dedication/commitment to build a truly muscular physique, but don’t judge those instructors who have achieved that look.

I think it’s sad that women are slammed for being “too fat, too thin, too muscular, too flabby, too old, etc. etc.” I think it’s even sadder when those who make those judgments are other women! IMHO the needle hasn’t moved a whole lot away from that in a positive direction, at least in the “gpop.” I do think it’s gotten better here at VF, but then again, the forum isn’t nearly as active as it used to be.

I don’t remember that Cathe video. It seems so unlike her. If she really had thought that, why do shrugs at all, since the point of them is to get bigger traps?

I remember making a comment in one of the STS 2.0 thread about skipping shrugs because I don’t want to do exercises with a focus solely on building traps. I deadlift heavy which does use the traps, so I am not scared of looking unfeminine by lifting weights, but shrugs are more of an isolation bodybuilding exercise, more aesthetic-focused, than for general strength.

To clarify, I wouldn’t tell another woman not to do shrugs! I think women should exercise however they want, and not worry about beauty standards or whatever anyone else thinks. To me that is different than telling someone that everyone should do all the exercises, when they have thoughts on not wanting to personally grow their traps, or obliques, or quads, and therefore are prioritizing certain exercises over others, even if it’s because it has to do with looks and a perception of what looks good *on them*, with their own ideas of femininity and how they want to look. It is no different than how many men downgrade leg days in the pursuit of bigger pecs and biceps, or how runners or rock climbers might avoid too much of certain kinds of work that affect their favorite activity.

Especially if one pursues bodybuilding types of strength workouts with lots of isolation type of exercises, which are most of what is available, you are by choice of workout going for a certain look. Even in the more intensive bodybuilding world, from my understanding, male and female can have different goals and different training plans.

I guess my point is that in agreeing that women shouldn’t be pigeonholed into a certain way of thinking about how they should look, neither should we go the other way in saying that being more muscular or doing the same workouts a man would do is the way that all of us “should” be. Nothing wrong with pursuing fitness that aesthetically a woman believe looks more feminine on their own frame. It would be great if we became more inclusive about these ideas, rather than just having culture switches that go from one thing to the other as the dominant idea. Maybe not, though, as life doesn’t seem to work that way.