Article Link NPR (2022): "Want to get stronger? Try weightlifting" [content about body image]

[prettyinpink]

Originally Posted by cataddict

I recall a thread or two about instructor physiques, mostly couched in terms that skirted the guidelines. I probably posted on a few. My personal interpretation of the topic was and is, “whose physique would be “my best me” if it was even possible to achieve it given my genetics and level of commitment.” I’m not tall and we are a pretty “solid" breed in my family. I don’t judge instructors who are "long, lean, and lithe”, but it isn’t “my best me” to attempt to replicate that look if it were possible for me. I also don’t have the dedication/commitment to build a truly muscular physique, but don’t judge those instructors who have achieved that look.
.

Whoops, I messed up the quotes in the last post.

I agree with this.

But— just being honest, I think it’s messier than that, because video-led fitness is a visual medium, and necessarily involves seeing someone the whole time you are working out. I don’t think that in the past I expected to look like a certain instructor by doing their workouts, because body types are all different and respond differently to different exercise and diets. But in the past I think I was more judgey about someone who did not look fit instructing in certain types of exercise.

I’m not saying it’s right, but I think it’s natural to judge these things when we are talking about physical things that do affect visual results in ourselves and others. I hope it’s improving, but just being the nature of things probably means that those involved in the fitness world are going to have to continue to deal with judgments like this. As discerning consumers, it’s on us to know that a person’s current appearance does not reflect their entire knowledge and experience of fitness; someone who “looks great” may not know what they are talking about, and it’s highly possible that someone who is not as lean or muscular might be a fantastic instructor. It’s still going to be hard for those who don’t fit a certain mold of whatever is popular at the moment, though.

[cataddict]

prettyinpink, I agree that it is indeed messier than my statement. I’ve struggled with weight perception well, just about forever, and have had a tendency to discount someone I see as a fitness professional that doesn’t fit my particular perception of what they “should” look like in that arena. I am still working to overcome my own moments of prejudice. I do recall a discussion here in the past about a favorite instructor of mine who gained weight as a result of a disease. There were some who were unkind as if her look made her less fit or valuable as an instructor. IIRC she stopped putting out workout videos after that, not that I’m declaring this to be the reason—I don’t know and wouldn’t speculate. I remember this incident since it really woke me up as to my own “judginess"
about equating a “look” with actual fitness.

The Cathe video in question was a very old one—might even be one that was originally on VHS. I have almost everything she ever made and that’s the only comment I can recall that was that specific, although the wedding video did have plenty of “look your best” talk.

[hch]

Originally Posted by prettyinpink

To clarify, I wouldn’t tell another woman not to do shrugs!

Originally Posted by prettyinpink

I guess my point is that in agreeing that women shouldn’t be pigeonholed into a certain way of thinking about how they should look, neither should we go the other way in saying that being more muscular or doing the same workouts a man would do is the way that all of us “should” be. Nothing wrong with pursuing fitness that aesthetically a woman believe looks more feminine on their own frame. It would be great if we became more inclusive about these ideas, rather than just having culture switches that go from one thing to the other as the
dominant idea. Maybe not, though, as life doesn’t seem to work that way.

I wouldn't support forcing everyone to exercise in Some Approved Fashion--but I also consistently find such "gendered" things regrettable (so I don't strictly agree with that "nothing wrong"), I find their continued existence apart from sexism hard to imagine, and I don't see a hard boundary between self-criticism and criticism from (or of!) others.

(What about that last point? I long noticed that even when VF had a lot more self-complaints about weight, size, and appearance, VFers still universally agreed with the Expert Advice of the time about about avoiding saying such things around young children. I wonder if what happens is less that young children "can't see the difference" and more that there actually isn't a hard difference, young children notice the fact, and they have yet to learn the accepted societal conditioning that allows us to pretend otherwise. )

I see both of those as forms of "pigeonholing." The specific judgments, the resulting choices, and the perceived direction ("someone else calls this 'unfeminine'" vs. "I call this 'unfeminine for myself'") may differ, but the underlying type of thinking isn't too different. In particular I'm reminded to wonder how often people would decide that something isn't "feminine" (or "masculine" or whatever) without a suspiciously similar idea floating out there.

I'll also have more responses later about other points in this and other posts!

[prettyinpink]

Originally Posted by hch

I wouldn't support forcing everyone to exercise in Some Approved Fashion--but I also consistently find such "gendered" things regrettable (so I don't strictly agree with that "nothing wrong"), I find their continued existence apart from sexism hard to imagine, and I don't see a hard boundary between self-criticism and criticism from (or of!) others.

(What about that last point? I long noticed that even when VF had a lot more self-complaints about weight, size, and appearance, VFers still universally agreed with the Expert Advice of the time about about avoiding saying such things around young children. I wonder if what happens is less that young children "can't see the difference" and more that there actually isn't a hard difference, young children notice the fact, and they have yet to learn the accepted societal conditioning that allows us to pretend otherwise. )

I see both of those as forms of "pigeonholing." The specific judgments, the resulting choices, and the perceived direction ("someone else calls this 'unfeminine'" vs. "I call this 'unfeminine for myself'") may differ, but the underlying type of thinking isn't too different. In particular I'm reminded to wonder how often people would decide that something isn't "feminine" (or "masculine" or whatever) without a suspiciously similar idea floating out there.

I'll also have more responses later about other points in this and other posts!

It’s true that my ideas of what is feminine *for me* or not are unavoidably influenced by who I am up to this point in life, including actually being a woman, societal messages, upbringing, life experiences, parenting children into adulthood, and my own fitness journey. No individual is so outside of themselves and above it all that they can say otherwise.

However, I have a fundamental disagreement with you: I don’t believe there is no difference between male and female, or that any perceived differences are solely due to sexism or societal conditioning. Studies in basic biology, genetics, evolution, and anthropology would also not agree with you. I don’t wish to go back and forth on this, as there’s really no point.


Thanks for the interesting thread, I’ve enjoyed it. But it now occurs to me that this conversation is becoming ironic and strange. Did it occur to you that a man telling a woman in a forum of mostly women that her concept of her own femininity is based on sexism, is sexist in itself?

I’m happy to continue interacting in threads on workouts. I suspect you’d have some interesting things to share.

[hch]

I'm not saying something quite like what your post is saying. At least one of my "later" posts is intended to elaborate on the subject (although somewhat indirectly).

I intend to continue writing that post, though I'm also reminded of one reason that I've never felt at home on VF (and one thing in an alternative universe's version of VF that would've kept me from ever joining it).

[EDIT: I addressed the likely point of confusion more directly in a later post.

[cataddict]

Thanks to both hch and prettyinpink for providing such an interesting and—shockingly enough these days--civil discussion!

I so agree that we can never be completely objective, as one’s viewpoint can never be completely separate from experience and/or genetics/biology. I think that women could offer similar comments on a man’s idea of what is “masculine” FOR HIM vs. what society says is “masculine.” I do think that there is both internal and external criticism and they are different animals.

I also think that it’s fine for hch to comment about views women have about their own view of femininity, as I am free to discount it or not based on his lack of experience (both biological and life) as a woman. I don’t see it as overt sexism, but I do consider the source and evaluate it for how credible it is to me—just like I do with any other opinion. I have certainly enjoyed the perspective offered on the topic.

[hch]

Originally Posted by prettyinpink

It is no different than how many men downgrade leg days in the pursuit of bigger pecs and biceps, or how runners or rock climbers might avoid too much of certain kinds of work that affect their favorite activity.

I don't see those as quite the same, though: although I'm not deeply familiar with either example (I've never "ideologically" skipped a leg day ), neither seems to be strongly tied to either a certain "targeted" aesthetics or an abstract notion of what's "gender-appropriate."

The example from certain sports (at least in what I've seen of it) seems not to be targeted at women (or at men), has a "functional" and activity-specific intent (not an aesthetic one), and doesn't try to be some universal exercise recommendation anyway.

Skipping Leg Day, at least in what I've heard, doesn't tend to be specifically opposed to leg muscle on men or something like that. It seems to be more from neglecting body parts and emphasizing others, in a way that I'd still call "aesthetic-related" but not "anti-leg," more of what we may call a sin of omission. A similar example would be neglecting the lower back--I can't think of anyone who's very anxious about it growing "too large," but it just isn't a "mirror" or "beach" muscle, and anyone whose driving concern is aethestic may be tempted not to do much with for the lower back until there's a problem.

[Gemini2874]

Wow! I don’t check in for awhile and come back to some craziness!

I agree that hch is not being sexist but pointing out observations regarding views of Femininity within the fitness world. His views are accurate. Also, I feel like he is an ally to women and not trying to take up space.

As a feminist, I can tell you women play a huge part in tearing apart other women. In fact, women do the dirty work for men. Women will cut up a woman’s appearance faster than you can blink. I don’t blame women, initially, for doing that because of the conditioning we experience since childhood. However, I do blame women for continuing to do so and not doing the work to unlearn all of that crap. Women don’t owe femininity to anyone. Women don’t owe thinness to anyone. And, we certainly don’t owe pretty to anyone. None of those things determine our worth or our right to exist in the bodies we possess. It is a fact that fat bodies, queer bodies, brown bodies, old bodies all feel less than welcome in a fitness space that is predominantly thin, white, heterosexual, young, and “conventionally feminine (or masculine)”.

I’m not going to put words in his mouth but when I read no fundamental difference between boys and girls, I interpret that to mean they can both be athletic and strong. Yet, boys are encouraged to do so and girls are encouraged to be thin and pretty. They can be athletic and strong as long as they are still thin and pretty. *barf emoji*


Aesthetics does still play a huge part in fitness. It has been that way since the beginning and is still that way. Why women are portrayed in fitness videos wearing skimpy clothes with their fake boobs popping out when the videos are marketed to women is beyond me. We have all heard all the aesthetics talk in more videos than we can count.

The fitness world is not very inclusive. The Health At Every Size movement is still looked down upon. People still think they can look at someone and determine if they are fit or not which is complete BS.

[cataddict]

Gemini2874, where do you see craziness in this thread? I see thoughtful debate and an exchange of ideas and perspectives. I’m asking honestly, not to stir the pot, as I’ve been enjoying the discussion and commented previously on how civilized it was—at least it has seemed so to me.

[Gemini2874]

I didn’t think the conversation was becoming ironic and strange as mentioned earlier. I think sometimes things become uncomfortable for others when truths are pointed out. But, I think everyone has the right to their opinion (and to state their opinion) and I respect that right- even if I don’t agree with what may or may not be said.