Article Link NPR (2022): "Want to get stronger? Try weightlifting" [content about body image]

[cataddict]

Originally Posted by Gemini2874

I didn’t think the conversation was becoming ironic and strange as mentioned earlier. I think sometimes things become uncomfortable for others when truths are pointed out. But, I think everyone has the right to their opinion (and to state their opinion) and I respect that right- even if I don’t agree with what may or may not be said.

Okay, I see. I don’t agree with everything that has been said in this thread either, but I don’t think it went down the path to craziness—not like some of the other threads in this forum over the years—so I guess it’s a matter of perspective! I really appreciate you clarifying what you meant.

[Gemini2874]

Of course!!! And, btw-your kitties are absolutely adorable!!

[hch]

Originally Posted by cataddict

I so agree that we can never be completely objective, as one’s viewpoint can never be completely separate from experience and/or genetics/biology. I think that women could offer similar comments on a man’s idea of what is “masculine” FOR HIM vs. what society says is “masculine.” I do think that there is both internal and external criticism and they are different animals.

But they're not very different animals.

I also do have similar positions about corresponding forms of "masculinity" and don't object to fair-minded scrutiny of it. I do think, though, that certain "masculinity!" ideas have been deconstructed a lot more than their "femininity!" equivalents (which have also been more pervasive and otherwise more generally problematic).

It's not directly physique-related, but I'm immediately reminded of how my interests happen to include yoga and Pilates (I even posted about Pilates earlier i this thread).

For somewhat complicated reasons (which I'd also call somewhat puzzling and unfortunate), both of those have been associated with gender stereotypes. I have never questioned my interest from any sort of misconception that Real Men Don't Do Such Things. (My interest also isn't from any other conscious engagement with Gender Things, such as intentionally rejecting stereotypes, constructing an "alternative masculinity," or anything like that.)

In other words, if I did follow certain Ideals Of Manhood and repressed any interest in things like yoga and Pilates, I probably wouldn't have found physical and other benefits if I didn't do them. And because these are among my top interests in actually following videos (at least instructionally), I even would've had less reason to join VF. (If exercise videos never talked about certain things, I would've started more threads about specific workouts by now! At least the world is seeing certain interesting changes.)

[hch]

Originally Posted by Gemini2874

I’m not going to put words in his mouth but when I read no fundamental difference between boys and girls, I interpret that to mean they can both be athletic and strong. Yet, boys are encouraged to do so and girls are encouraged to be thin and pretty. They can be athletic and strong as long as they are still thin and pretty. *barf emoji*

I never said anything about "no fundamental difference between boys and girls." I'm isolating one part that I think is the source of that reading:

Originally Posted by hch

I don't see a hard boundary between self-criticism and criticism from (or of!) others.

(What about that last point? I long noticed that even when VF had a lot more self-complaints about weight, size, and appearance, VFers still universally agreed with the Expert Advice of the time about about avoiding saying such things around young children. I wonder if what happens is less that young children "can't see the difference" and more that there actually isn't a hard difference, young children notice the fact, and they have yet to learn the accepted societal conditioning that allows us to pretend otherwise. )

I referred to "that last point": I meant no hard differences between "I cricitize my own body" and "I criticize yours." (No gender references mentioned here!)

Although I do thank you for not telling me What I Really Said, your post is still accurate about what I do think.

This is a good spot to repost a link to a recent thread, "How your family shapes your body image" [BBC Future], which entered my mind earlier as an example of children's interpreting criticisms (even those not directed at them) in lasting ways.

The piece happens to include this part about criticisms:

There's a reason why parental influence is so strong. Rachel Rodgers, a psychologist at Northeastern University, says that when a parent is concerned with their own body image, they will be modelling behaviours that show "this is important".

"Even if they're not mentioning the child's physical appearance, they're still acting in a way that suggests to the child, 'this is something that worries me, this is something that I'm preoccupied with', and so children pick up on that."

Here, I also want to quote

One reason the effect is stronger for girls could be because, from an early age, girls and boys are socialised differently. Girls are often told that their social value lies in how attractive they are, says Rodgers. "That their bodies are made to be looked at, they are supposed to be contained, docile and not take up too much space," she says. "Boys are socialised to understand that their bodies are functional, that they're strong, which is a very different message."

Although I won't pretend that the socialization of boys is perfect as it is, I would insist that girls' bodies can also be functional and strong.

[toaster]

Henry, I appreciate what you brought up about children. It's interesting that we could label criticizing appearance behavior as "wrong" to the extend that we have the rule that we "shouldn't" do it around children, and yet we don't apply that rule to ourselves - or to other adults.

(That being said, I've her plenty of women talk negatively in front of their children about not only their bodies but also indirect things about needing to go on diet, not being allowed to have cake, etc.; that kind of talk always gives me a little stab to the heart. )

Originally Posted by hch

I referred to "that last point": I meant no hard differences between "I cricitize my own body" and "I criticize yours." (No gender references mentioned here!)

I agree with you that this is often the case, but I do see differences here. Putting on my therapist's hat, I work with plenty of clients who would think it would be "wrong" to criticize or judge others for their bodies (or for other things as well) but are much harsh critics of self. At the same time, I think you are right that our own biases about weight, size, etc. often spill out to impact our opinions of others.

(I'm not a parent, but again, speaking more as a therapist, I see it especially important for parents to be aware of/try to dissolve these biases in themselves so that they don't impart them to their children.)

[prettyinpink]

Hch, in re-reading my post and in light of today’s posts, it would have been better if I had asked for clarification on what you meant by “no hard differences”, and at least should have said “could be sexist,” not “is sexist.” My apologies.


I like what Gemini said here:

I’m not going to put words in his mouth but when I read no fundamental difference between boys and girls, I interpret that to mean they can both be athletic and strong. Yet, boys are encouraged to do so and girls are encouraged to be thin and pretty. They can be athletic and strong as long as they are still thin and pretty.

But, we should not assume that the milieu we as older women grew up in are the same as that of girls today. It isn’t that these messages aren’t still present, but an emphasis on health rather than size, and on strength and athleticism, in sports and fitness participation, is more present than it was in my childhood and teen years, and has been for at least 20 years that I’m aware of. I see that as one wonderful positive change.

[Gemini2874]

Prettyinpink, thanks for sharing your opinions! I wish you were correct about it being easier for girls today but it is the exact opposite!!! I was just talking to a family member with a teenage daughter and she was in tears over how to help her daughter. These kids today have something we never had….social media. They are CONSTANTLY bombarded with images of what is considered “perfect body” images. These images are usually fake as angles, lighting, and filters create unrealistic images. Everywhere these girls turn, they have these images crammed down their throats. There is no escape. Studies show that 50% of 6 year old girls want a thinner body. The average age a girl starts to diet is now 8 years old. By age 10, 80% of girls have been on a diet. More than 400,000 plastic/cosmetic surgeries were performed on teenagers in 2022. What are we doing as a society?

[cataddict]

prettyinpink, I did not interpret your post that it is “easier” for girls today, just that there is a least a counter message out there, unlike when you (and I) were teenagers. I agree that is a positive step. Please correct me if I’m wrong in my reading. I also appreciate that you clarified your post to hch—I didn’t think you were being accusatory, FWIW.

toaster, thank you for your post and describing your “real world” experience of the difference between judging others and judging ourselves.

[prettyinpink]

Originally Posted by cataddict

prettyinpink, I did not interpret your post that it is “easier” for girls today, just that there is a least a counter message out there, unlike when you (and I) were teenagers. I agree that is a positive step. Please correct me if I’m wrong in my reading. I also appreciate that you clarified your post to hch—I didn’t think you were being accusatory, FWIW.

toaster, thank you for your post and describing your “real world” experience of the difference between judging others and judging ourselves.

Thank you. Yes, I am not saying that everything is better now. Just looking for the positive where I can find it.

Also echoing your thanks to Toaster’s insights, I agree.

Gemini, social media is a difficult beast for sure. It has been hard being this first parental generation to navigate it, and very hard for the kids exposed to and participating in it.

[Gemini2874]

Originally Posted by prettyinpink

Thank you. Yes, I am not saying that everything is better now. Just looking for the positive where I can find it.

Also echoing your thanks to Toaster’s insights, I agree.

Gemini, social media is a difficult beast for sure. It has been hard being this first parental generation to navigate it, and very hard for the kids exposed to and participating in it.

Yup, definitely hard!!! Well, thank you or being a glass half full type of person! Positivity is a good thing!!!